MEETING MINUTES

State Directors Meeting ~ Nampa ~ July 12, 2008
State Convention Meeting ~ Lewiston ~ April 12, 2008



BACK COUNTRY HORSEMEN OF IDAHO
STATE DIRECTORS MEETING
JULY 12, 2008 – NAMPA

Phil Ryan, Vice-Chairman opened meeting @ 8:30 AM in absence of Raenette Didier, President. Phil introduced Terry Allen Hoover, who is the BCHI Legislative Liaison. His subject matter was ‘What you need to know about influencing legislation’. Terry said in “Expanding the Code of Conflict”, you have to get other people and user groups involved. Today, we have a lot of people who are followers. We have to expand the voice of conflict and everyone, no matter what, is an activist. We need to improve the website to show, visually, all the work we do. This means more photos and a chronicle of what we have done, along with any active bills or items that affect us. We need to band with all the other horse groups or we will lose what we have. Terry also advised that the most effective way to get a response from legislature is a hand written letter, in ink or an email, as they do get read. A second website dedicated to legislation would be a good idea. We need to sell ourselves and educate others.

Gene Bruce advised there is a lawsuit that the American Hiking Society has against the Inyo National Forest in California. A federal court in California has ruled that commercial pack stock does not have a mandate to be in the back country in the Inyo National Forest. That means they have ‘no right’ to be there. The Forest Service has not appealed this yet. Val Johnson feels this decision may trickle down to the private user.

Sharon Bruce, Acting Secretary for Sherri Lionberger did roll call of all chapters. Out of the 15 chapters, Cache Peak, North Idaho, Sawtooth and Twin Rivers BCH were not present. Sharon read the minutes of the prior meeting . Val Johnson moved to approve the minutes as read. Terry Steiner seconded, minutes were approved. (At this time Raenette Didier came and took control of the meeting.)

TREASUERS REPORT – was given by Treasurer Gretel Kleint (see copy attached to these minutes). Raenette & Gretel reviewed the BCHI Budget line by line to make us aware of what our income and expenses are exactly for. It was noted that we are still getting income from our ‘Horse Sense’ video. We were selling them for $10.00, but if any chapter has any of these VHS tapes left, give them away to anyone you wish as they are getting very old. It is a hope that this video can be transferred from VHS to DVD in the future.

WEBSITE: Our new website is up and running. Raenette advised that the flow of getting information onto the website is to get it to the State Secretary, who will then make sure it gets to the webmaster. Heartland is now using the same webmaster, along with Panhandle. Other chapters should do the same. The charge for set up is $200.00 and a $20.00 monthly maintenance fee.

The calendar page needs to be utilized, which is a link to the site. One person from your chapter needs to contact Sherri to get the password to utilize the BCHI calendar. Any updates will then be directed to the webmaster. The Foundation needs to get updates to the webmaster also. Issues are the next tab. We don’t have a lot on it right now. If you have something that you think it should be on there, let Raenette know. The Chairman should review to make sure it is something that the Board is supporting.

Should we have the BCHI minutes posted onto the website? After discussion everyone felt we should, but not to include the Treasurers report. Only state that the Treasurers report was read and approved. It will be the Secretary’s responsibility to get this information posted to the BCHI website.

The BCHI Annual report, which is now done on CD can also be put onto our website, eliminating copies for each chapter. This will also be the responsibility of the Secretary.

Mary Beth Conger said that she and Dale Schrempp (Co-Education Chairs) are working on redoing the Educational booklet and brochure. She would like to see this on the website too. That will happen in the near future.

Raenette said she visited with Mark Bogar and Karen Parks regarding the Outdoor Show and they suggested that we have a link on our website for the Outdoor Show and include all the vendors. Mark thinks this would be a good sales hook in asking for vendors to be a part of the Outdoor Show. Is this something we should do? Web advertising is big business. Do we want to do it for a $500 ad? Robin suggested we ask the webmaster to see how many hits on the website we get; we should be getting a report from the webmaster on this. Barbara Z-Smith moves the vendors and sponsors of the Outdoor Show, have a link from our website in support of them. Norman Smith second and motion carried.

Terry Hoover had stated about having an alert on our website to our membership of any items of concern. Every chapter needs an email tree and/or phone tree in getting alerts out to everyone. Raenette encouraged chapters to at least have your minutes/newsletter done electronically. Some chapters do not want the internet exposure. Raenette is going to ask in November how many chapters are forwarding emails to your members of items of importance.

BCH OF MONTANA annual report DVD was shown and the Directors all agree that BCHI should do the same. BCH of MT used a production company, which two of their members own, but they have the outline we could use and just change pictures and whatever wording we want. Everyone agrees we should consider doing the same.

WAYS & MEANS COMMITTEE: Phil Ryan reported on the upcoming 2009 Calendar that will be ready in September. 66 photos were submitted and it is being put together as he speaks. Phil & Kaye will be making a road trip and will deliver the calendars to each chapter. If each member sold 2.5 calendars, the 2,000 would be sold. The monthly winners will be put on the website and their name will be in the grand prize drawing. 10% of the sales go back to the chapters. The calendars are $20.00 a piece. An 8 x 10 poster will be distributed so folks can see what we have. However creative you can be, please sell them. A calendar should be easier to sell than a raffle ticket, plus the opportunity of winning a prize. The grand prize is either a 4 horse trailer or ATV. We need to inform the webmaster of the calendar information, to contact Phil if they want some. If WY can sell 2,000, there is no reason we can’t do the same. The calendar also will fit in a calendar photo frame. The calendars will be individually shrunk wrapped. A business could even put their own logo on it. A feed business, veterinarians, etc. would be a good place to sell them to.

A count was taken from each chapter as to how many calendars they will commit to sell. The tally is as follows: Boise = 25, Eagle Rock = 75, Heartland = 100, High Desert = 100, North Central Idaho = 150, Panhandle = 200, Priest River = 100, Salmon River = 75, Selkirk = 25, Squaw Butte = 250, Treasure Valley = 120 and Twin Rivers = 300. This is a commitment from the reporting chapters to sell 1,520 of the 2,000 calendars.

OUTDOOR SHOW REPORT: Raenette spoke to Mark Bogar of Twin Rivers BCH and he said there is no question it takes a lot of time to put this event on. The reason they ordered 300 calendars is because they think they can get more money for the state on sales of calendars, vs. the Outdoor Show. Raenette said if we can make the Outdoor Show a go, maybe we should consider giving more than 10% of the proceeds to Twin Rivers. The arena presentations are an expense that takes away from our profits. Mark Bogar can’t believe someone from BCHI can’t do a presentation, which would help reduce expenses. We need new demonstrations coming into the arena. Mark would like us to come back in November with talking to your chapter and getting fellow BCHers to do a demo of some kind.

Discussion was brought up about each chapter bring two raffle items and one nice item for the live auction? We need to revitalize the bucket raffle as it did not bring in much money. We need to upgrade to quality items that are of a $50.00 value each. That would entice people to buy tickets and generate more money. After discussion, it was decided that each chapter will have two bucket raffle prizes of $50.00 each and $50.00 silent auction item. A bucket raffle prize can be a combination of items, with a value of $50.00 and put in a gift basket/box of some kind.

Now that we don’t have people tied into a half day meeting, we need more ideas of things like the dog competition and such. It is asked that directors to go back to their chapters and ask for BCHers to do some kind of demo. After discussion it was decided that we will have a Sunday BCHI Dutch Oven cook-off and the charge will be $3.00 each to cover the cost of the building. We would have three dishes and judge. Sharon Bruce volunteered to put a flyer together and Panhandle will organize it. She will need to have prizes and keep track of it. If you have ideas, please forward them to her. Twin Rivers has been looking into ways of making more money and we aren’t sure how long they will continue to do this unless we are going to help them out in any way we can.

Raenette would like to give Mark Bogar; Rod & Karen Parks’s recognition for their personal efforts and would like to give them a gift. Everyone approved.

BCHI CONVENTION: Val Johnson reported that it will not be at the Elks Lodge, it will be at the Salmon City Center on Saturday, Nov 15th in Salmon, ID. It is their 30 year anniversary. Salmon River BCH is the oldest Idaho chapter. They will not sell raffle tickets. They may have a live auction instead to earn money for their Chapter. The State Directors meeting will be held Friday, November 14th in the Lemhi Room of the Stagecoach Inn. There will be a photo contest, but no categories. They would like to see each chapter (look in your archives) come up with the best photo you have had since inception. They can be framed or matted, but please limit size to 8x10 or a 3-picture collage. If you can provide a digital copy as well, that would be appreciated.

They would like for each chapter to provide a picture and bio of their special heroes (founders, charter members, spark plugs, whatever) so we can give them special recognition. In addition, they would like to do an “In Memoriam” section. Deadline for these submissions needs to be 9/15/08. Email to Val Johnson at valbjohnson@yahoo.com. These need to be submitted in digital form, if possible.

They will not provide lunch at the State Directors meeting on Friday nor during the convention on Saturday. Everyone will be on their own.

They also want, from each chapter a two minute yarn of a worst or best event, a highlight from the past, or whatever. Raenette asked that as soon as they get their registration form put together, it needs to be put on the website. We need to get support from our chapters to attend and to have all 15 chapters present. Remember, your chapter has eight delegate votes.

BROOMTALES REPORT - Marilyn was not present to report. If you want copies, please contact her. Robin Schindele asked about getting a different printer and he feels we could get a better deal and quality. Robin said he will check around and get some quotes and report in November on what he finds out.

FOUNDATION REPORT: Sharon Bruce reported that she learned the Tax Identification number from the IRS was expired. The same for the State of Idaho. She has been working on this and has since gotten both reinstated.

BCHA is now a 501(c)3 and they are looking to see if states can umbrella under them. If Idaho does go under the umbrella, contributions can be tax deductible. Val Johnson doesn’t know if it can be done and a lot of the states are already a 501(c)3, so it probably will not happen.

QUIET COMMOTION meeting was attended by Phil Ryan. It is put on by the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA). The underlying feel he got was getting motorized folks out of the forest. It appears more restrictions will come in future for motorized vehicles. They were amazed as to our volunteer hours and what we do in the back country. Phil felt it was worth attending the meeting. It was education for them also in that they had no idea that they are predators to the horses. The FS and BLM were in attendance also. There were about 150 in attendance from all over the country.

NATIONAL DIRECTORS REPORT: Val Johnson reported that they brought on a Director of Development - Kande Hartel. The solicitation letter she sent out was successful. 3% response is what was received with contributions which helps pay for her position. BCHA reported 5.3 million was contributed by volunteer hours from the states. There is still a major controversy regarding LNT. LNT is an organization - a patten name (entity). Somehow they have taken over the LNT concept and believe they are the only experts. Insurance is the issue. NOLS wants a $3 million dollar insurance policy for BCHA to insure NOLS to put on this program and it was voted down. BCHA has a member that sits on their board. NOLS signed a confidentiality statement and our board member can not tell us what happened at the board meeting because of it. The only thing Val sees we get out of this program is we get a certificate stating you are a master trainer. We have members that are strong believers of the LNT program.

BCHA created a new executive committee. It is a sounding board for the Chairman during the ensuing year to help him in the decision making process. Steve Didier said the FS is to use the El Dorado Forest Management (in CA) plan as an example for all states. A huge problem with this is not being able to camp one car length from the road. Someone hauling a horse trailer can’t do it. The FS is being sued right now over this management plan. Steve also reported on the status of Trail Classifications that a meeting will be held in the Clearwater National Forest on Labor Day week with North Central hosting this meeting with the FS. Wisconsin and Kentucky are now affiliates and Alabama was brought in as a State organization.

PUBLIC LANDS REPORT - Bernie Lionberger was not present to report.
TRAIL/RECREATIONAL COUNCIL - Mary Beth Conger has not been to a meeting since 2006. The group knew we had representation there when she attended. There was one issue, in particular, that we were silent on and that was wilderness areas. They want to open up wilderness areas to motorized vehicles. It was presented in the paper that horse people were in favor of that, but Mary Beth was not in attendance and did not vote on that issue. It is important someone attends. They meet three times a year, and are very informal. Robin gets all of their emails. Their primary issue has been to expand & fight the reduction of ORV traffic to see that it is not being reduced. Val said BCH has a positive image and credibility and we need to make sure it is not being squandered. Terry Steiner was the Chair at that time and he requested a retraction from the newspaper and REC council. He said it was taken care of as soon as it was done. Mary Beth will no longer be attending these meetings. The meetings are in Boise and Phil will attend if it doesn’t conflict with another meeting he would need to go to.

RAENETTE Didier gave a plaque to Robin Schindele in honor of Dr. Sally Schindele for her contribution and dedication to BCHI education.

SPORTSMAN CAUCUS - Sportsman Advisory Council will meet again in September. Phil Ryan attended and felt our presence was important to be there.

IDAHO HORSE COUNCIL & IDAHO HORSE BOARD reported by Barbara Z-Smith. The horse slaughter is still an issue and not resolved. The Idaho Horse council is the one united organization of any type of horse user. The group that is not represented is the back yard horsemen. We BCH folks should be reaching these folks and let them know this organization exists. If they do away with the brand inspections, the Horse Board will not function as they depend on this money. The IHC voted yes to support the Horse Identification program. The health benefits were the main reason they voted yes. This is the chip program. Anita VanGrunsven of Heartland BCH is opposed to it and gave her report. NAIS is the program (National Animal Identification System). Western Horsemen (June 2008 issue) has an article titled “Identity Crisis” concerning this issue.

She said, if approved, every horse will have to be chipped. The State of Idaho is asking for volunteers to do this now. This is the first step of the program. We already have ID and it is called a brand inspection. Idaho Horse Council is one of the supporters of this program, as Barbara stated they voted for. Anita proposes that BCHI should insist that Idaho Horse Council withdraw its public support of NAIS in Idaho (see copy of report attached). She feels we should not have our name listed as a supporter of this program. Anita would like for us to bring this back to our chapters and report back in November. Raenette said Heartland BCH needs to have this issue come back in a form of a resolution. This will be brought forward to the delegation and voted upon. Also, that we have attendance at the next Idaho Horse Council meeting and bring this up. The Governor of Idaho is endorsing this program. Anita just wants to exclude horses from this program. The breeders and horse racing industry support this program. Anita wants to see it a voluntary program, not mandatory. Heartland BCH needs to get this resolution to Raenette and Sherri one month prior to the November meeting.

EDUCATION REPORT: Dale Schrempp reported that he will work with Mary Beth Conger in getting material onto the BCHI website. He discussed the Chainsaw and Crosscut Saw Certification. The FS is working on getting this program in unison nationwide, to have all agencies use the same program.

MTDC has a questionnaire to be completed on the Chainsaw Certification program.

DIRECTOR ASSIGNMENTS FOR APRIL 2009 OUTDOOR SHOW: The slots need filling are Logistics, Food Chair, Live auction, Raffle Chair, Bucket Raffle, Photo contest, Decoration, Chapter Display and BCH Booth. Karen Parks suggested we go to Lewis & Clark College and they have a program for Dutch oven cooking. Karen Parks will set up the catering for dinner. (Robin will email the ticket format to Karen and have Twin Rivers do them). Food will just be the continental breakfast and set up for dinner. Raenette asked each chapter what they will do and results are as follows:

Logistics: Twin Rivers
Food Chair: Priest River & Selkirk
Live Auction: North Central Idaho
State Raffle: (It was decided not to do one because of the calendar sales)
Table Raffle: Salmon River, Squaw Butte, High Desert & Heartland
Photo Contest: Panhandle
Decorations: Treasure Valley
Chapter Display: Eagle Rock

Raenette will see to it that tasks are given to the chapters not in attendance. Norm asked that these assignments be sent out to the chapters again. Maybe include notes from those who did it last year to help those doing it next year.

Topics for Nov State Board of Directors meeting: We will need the Resolution from Heartland. Each chapter needs to have a two minute presentation of Worst or Best event from the past. On the photo contest if you have a digital, it needs to be done by 9/15/08 (we need clarification from Salmon River if this is a contest or not.)

Idea for a speaker for Convention is to have the State Brand Inspector there.

No need to bring the Chapter Display to the November meeting due to the photo contest.

Kathy Kerley moved that we adjourn. Second by Robin Schindele and carried.

Respectfully Submitted:
Sharon Bruce (Acting Secretary for Sherri Lionberger)

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State Convention Meeting
Lewiston, Idaho April 12, 2008


Raenette opened the meeting at 0830. The local Boy Scout Troop presented the flag ceremony. Roll call was made and the annual reports handed out. All chapters were present. Past Chairmen were introduced – all were at the meeting. Our organization submitted dues to the national for 842 members. It was noted that Val Johnson was here helping on Thursday and was on life flight to Spokane for a heart stint Thursday night (and yes they had the flight insurance). Val was released and back by Sat. afternoon!!

Mark Bogar noted this is the 3rd year for the show and it has helped us become financially solvent as an organization, which should allow us to grow. He reviewed the various vendors and competitions to attend.

Peter Stegner, from Senator Crapo’s office spoke to the group on Senate Bill 2283 - Preserving our Equine Heritage. The bill is currently in committee with no movement. The Senator is very supportive of this Act and wanted to thank us for our volunteer work on federal lands. When this was first introduced, there was no democratic co-sponsor, which it needs. They have worked with Senator Cantwell, with moderate success, but may look at teaming up with Senator Tester of Montana to help it move forward. Senator Tester is on the same committee. They are looking for specific example of why/where this Act is needed. Steve asked what is the most effective way to contact our legislature – email, phone, letters, form letters. Peter said it was best to contact the local staffer via phone or visit. Since 9/11, it takes forever for a letter to get through the DC office due to security. Question asked at what point do you have enough phone calls or contacts to make an issue rise to the top. Peter said when they get 15-20 constituents calling, it raises the level. When you contact as a group, they understand it has a large organization behind it. Phil Foster pointed out that we don’t have direct closures to equine in Idaho, as much as agencies are pressured by environmental groups not to replace bridges that have failed or washed out and only use fords. This would preclude all access during high water. There is also a lack of maintenance on trails. Question asked about being on an email list to get equine information. You can get their newsletter & press releases, but it would not be specific to equines. Don McPhereson noted that he has sent numerous letters and never got acknowledgement they were received. Peter apologized and said all comments should be responded to.

Recreation User Fee Repeal Legislation – Steve Didier
We were asked by another group to support repealing the user fee act. In Idaho – we have success with these fees going back to the area they were collected, but in others states they have not had the same success. When Fee Demo started, over a decade ago, BCH chose to come out in opposition to it. It was not denying the need in places, but that it would become an entitlement program. The last report was that in 50% of the areas, 62% of the fees went back to something other than what they collected for. There are certain sections in the Act where it specifically said fees would not be assessed for access to ride or travel through areas, picnicking, parking along side the road, nor assessed in areas unless the agency had significant investment, such as campgrounds with bathrooms, etc. In CO last year a lady was ticketed for parking along the road and having a picnic..she won in court. These kinds of examples are what are causing the repeal act. There are several forests in the east that enacted fees at trailheads for equestrian use only. In the 3 forests (Shawnee, Hoosier, and Chatahoochie/Ocono) there are few equestrian users compared to hikers, but they are singled out. Steve also discussed areas where fees have helped the FS maintain its areas. Region 1 is noted for its ability in putting these dollars back on the ground where they were collected. Region 4 is probably 2nd, other than a few select areas like the Payette River. So BCHA is opposing the fees. Question asked whether there will be money from Congress back to the agency to replace the money taken away from the fee demo. If it is a line item – yes, but if it is not a line item, then no. The National Park Service is excluded from the proposed Act.

Public lands information – the access fee is the big one, and Peter already covered the Historic Use Act. Another item that happens more back east, but has potential in WA and OR is the denial of equestrian use on state lands. One thing BCH has never done is mount a campaign against another user, but International Mountain Biking Ass (IMBA) has done that to us very successfully. In parts of CO it appears that IMBA has put together the management plans that deny access to users. BCHA is trying to get on top of this issue. It isn’t clear why they are attacking us. There was a study done by someone that slams equestrian use and since he has the letters behind his name, IMBA is using his study. One study in the Midwest and east showed that weed spread was not occurring along the trail due to manure because growing conditions were not adequate. But IMBA uses a different study to prove that in the lab, they could grow weeds from manure….under best conditions. The problem is the national leadership for IMBA, and not the local groups that sometimes have good working relationships with BCH.

Trail classifications – the meeting got nixed by the fires last year. It should happen this spring, but they discovered that some forests were implementing trail management objectives already. We were assured this would not be done without NEPA, so BCHA has sent a letter to the associate chief. It was noted that there is discussion about changing the status of horses from livestock to a companion animal, and that would not be good. (California is trying to do it.) Steve said this comes up every few years in CA. Rhode Island classifies that horses are ATV’s. Most of us have been against the animal identification database which states that our equines are livestock – so there is some benefit to that.

The Scariest Thing You Might See On a Trail.
A bicycle rider entered the building! Scott Jackson has a bike dealership in Lewiston and a booth here at the show. He noted that they actually have a lot of fear of equines. One reason is they have not discussed with each other what to do when they meet. And part of the concern is the fact that they like to go fast, leave the ground and use jumps, etc. He was recently educated to the fact that horses don’t like you above them, which is where he would usually go up the hill to stop easier. He notes that they like “clean” trails with no rocks, etc for increased speed. Question asked how can we hear you coming so we can prepare for the bicycles? Can you put something on the bike? It was suggested that bicyclists talk to the horses as horses understand human voice. It was suggested that if you are riding uphill and want to keep your momentum, holler ahead that bikers are going by and horses can step aside. If bicyclists need to dismount, give them time to adjust to their legs for walking instead of biking – be patient. Let people know if there are more coming – bikers or horses. Question asked about education and training between user groups with Scott? He said they never had an established club to do this, but it is just starting up. We should go and talk to the bike shops, especially the repair person who talks with the new bike owner about trails; get the etiquette info to them so they can share it. BCH could develop a poster to be put up in bike shops with some information. The bicycle groups aren’t as organized as BCH. Marilyn said she would work with Scott and get information out. Question asked how can we make the bikers more comfortable on the trail. When they are on top of a trail and looking at the descent…maybe there are situations where there could be a passing lane to allow the bicycles to maintain their speed. They don’t complain about horse manure any more, because they moved the water bottle location to the top and it doesn’t get manure flung over the bottle. It was suggested BCHers could kick the manure off the first ½ miles of trails pretty easy. Other than wilderness, do they have access issues? Yes they do and they could use our voice as much as we can use theirs. He would like to see folks working together to keep trails open. They are a young group – the first mountain bike was built 26 years ago. They are losing trail access on state land and being told they scare wildlife.

Jack Lamb had the foundation report – same report as yesterday.

Broomtales: Marilyn Rousher is doing an article for Broomtales next issue on people who ride mules. She would like names and emails from folks so she can ask questions and get photos, etc.

Life flight: Phil Ryan.
This has worked out well – some chapters bought blocks on their own, and BCHI handled chapters that did not buy the 100 memberships. There were some issues dealing with wrong addresses or phone numbers, but expect fewer problems next year. This year, there were no slots for new members to join in, so next year chapters may want to buy extra slots for new members. Some chapters raised their dues by $6 and have automatic membership in the life flight. (Phil noted that any emails actually come from his wonderful wife Kay!) The state did not lose a dime – we have 400 memberships. Life Flight can land anywhere in an emergency situation, including wilderness and need 50 feet square in daylight and 75 feet square at night. They need to find you – use a GPS. You may need satellite phones to get out in some areas. This covers the difference between what your insurance covers and the rest of the flight cost.

BCHI.org website has not been working since last year. Connie Glass designed the site and has kept it up, but it is now corrupted and she is unable to fix it. She will step down and the board of directors has tasked a new person to get the web site back up. Raenette got a plaque for Connie for all the work she has done to be presented by PBCH.

Delegate votes:
The bylaw change for BHCI passed by unanimous vote.

Calendar proposal: A question was asked whether delegates should vote yes when their chapter said no. Past chairs said there is a fiduciary responsibility for the financial security of the state organization and they can chose as they wish. BCHI will not tell them how to vote. The calendar proposal passed by 48 yes to 15 no.

Convention proposal passed by 48 yes, 14 no and 1 neutral. The date for the November convention in Salmon will be Saturday, November 15, and the board meeting will be Friday, November 14.

National Director proposals. Val and Rod Parks will go to the meeting. Bernie reviewed the proposals that will come up there. One will be by-law changes that were somewhat benign, but necessary. The California proposal was opposed by BCHI. There is a proposal for an opposition resolution to the animal identification. There is a Wyoming proposal to require standing committee chairs to be appointed from National Directors (e.g. Steve Didier is a standing committee chair, but not a member of the board now). BCHI opposed this one. Illinois had a proposal to words repeal the RAT tax.

Raenette asked for volunteers to step up and take the state secretary task. See her if you are interested. Their travel costs will be covered by the state.

Convention adjourned.

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